Itll change your life, no doubt. And she doesnt mention sin in this part of Luke one. That was a really well articulated opening statement and I appreciate it. . It says in the plural, May their camp be a desolation. Oh wow. 878 talking about this. Yeah. I also want to thank Trent for agreeing to our second debate and we hit over 800, I saw in there, which actually our first debate, so praise Jesus for that. [3] Christie was activated to play on July 7, 2007 against the Hamilton Tiger-Cats. Okay, Trent. An interview of Gary Habermas with Steve Forkin of No Apologies; Video Link . A Response to Pastor Chip Thornton's Anti-Catholic Newspaper Article. I mean, because honestly I believe that all three do contradict all of them. And again, just to give an example in the Septuagint, in the Book of Sirach, which is inspired for Trent, but its not inspired for me, it uses the Greek word [Greek 00:47:52], which is a masculine form of [Greek 00:47:55] when it says, Hail Mary, full of grace. And its used to describe a man who is full of grace. But the only thing we should offer on an altar is the body and blood of Jesus Christ, the lamb of God that he has given to us at Calvary. In 2015 Christie was named Executive Director of Sports at Mastermind Lounge, LLC. Why Is the Protestant Bible Shorter than the Catholic Bible? And the issue too, is it discusses the word ipsum as opposed to ipsa, when it says from Genesis 15, if she will bruise the heel, or his heel will be versed, however its actually worded. And what I would say here is that I agree that use of [inaudible 01:22:20] in Luke 1:28 does not prove the doctrine of the immaculate conception. If so, if it was an eyewitness account, why hasnt the Catholic church dogmatically declared whether or not she died first? And Steve has said, Well, we know theres an exception because the Bible says that Jesus is the exception. So clearly, then, that means the Bible can make universal statements, but sources of divine revelation can give us those exceptions. 0 (0 ratings) Leave a review. What son would not bring his mother back to life and would not bring her into paradise after her death, if he could. Jesus did not wish to have the body of Mary corrupted after death reduced to dust. I guess, after the New Testament, I guess heres a fun question, which of the church fathers would you be okay with preaching at your church? Yes, and Christie admits they did, though he thinks we can discern which Jews had the correct canon of Scripture. However, Paul cant be saying that every single person commits personal sins because the Bible itself contradicts this. But those who knew the family, why he is called the son of Mary is interesting, and a good explanation is that he was born of Mary, and that Mary was Josephs second wife. Thats fair. As far as Jesus brothers and sisters, I probably have studied that more than anything else and that would probably be the hardest for me to accept or maybe Mary being sinless because I mean, Trent, you got a seven year old, its like is as good as a kid as he is based on who his parents are. No. Trent, do you want to start or do you want me to answer that first? And so when we look to Mary, we always follow the words that she uttered to the servants at the Wedding Feast of Cana, Do whatever he tells you. And Jesus tells us to honor our father and mother, and we should honor his father and mother. We use Christian Apologetics to discuss, interview, & debate for God's existence, & Christianity. Their issue is not about Mary. He became sin for us. Check out this great listen on Audible.com. Hes saying that every ethnic group is guilty of sin, whether youre a Jew or a non Jew. Thats why theyre diverging traditions on whether Mary died or not, but you dont find the first denial of Marys assumption until in the late early middle ages. Well, Scripture seems silent on the matter, not resolved, but at least it doesnt contradict Scripture, then I would say we should treat the Marian dogmas like youre a Protestant. Both the Old and the New Testaments also use firstborn to indicate firstborn among other siblings, such as Esau being Isaacs firstborn and Ruben as Jacobs first born, meaning they were not firstborns out of their fathers wombs, considering men dont have wombs, but firstborn among their other children. I dont know if I would. Steve Christie also has his own website. Dear catholic.com visitors: This Catholic Answers website, with all its free resources, is the worlds largest source of explanations for Catholic beliefs and practices. Prototokos, I dont have a problem with the term, meaning first out of the womb, but in Luke chapter two versus 22 to 23, this is a different event. Man commits idolatry when he honors and reviews a creature in place of God. The Isaiah 7:14 prophecy only indicates that Mary was to remain a virgin during her pregnancy and up to the Messiahs birth., The NAB continues, The evangelist is simply concerned to emphasize that Joseph was not responsible for the conception of Jesus, which is why Matthew stresses the child who has been conceived in her is of the Holy Spirit. Many of them did not believe in him. Our two sources of evidence during this period would be Jewish and Christian authors. Peels notes in his study of the passage, Jesus is not marking beginning and end points in time but rather is contrasting Abels secret death in the wilderness with Zechariahs public death in the Temple. Though a mere chip-shot, from 32 yards, the three-pointer enabled . Okay. And Id probably want to make Peter the rock of the church. Yeah. And it is from the pure fiction of the proto evangelium of James, Odes of Solomon, the Ascension of Isaiah, the Transitus of Pseudo-Melito, and other false gospels and apocryphal literature, some attached with anathemas by early popes for entertaining these works. If you like todays episode, become a premium subscriber at our Patreon page and get access to member only content. Some people might even accuse you of idolatry. It is used this way consistently in the New Testament, as well as in the Septuagint where it is used over a hundred times, such as the Sister Kingdoms of Israel and Judah who worship the same one true God of the Old Testament. Originally from Aberdeen ,now residing in Edinburgh. If Mary was a immaculate conceived, why would Joseph and her kinsfolk who knew her-. No, it doesnt. That seems to be something that went without contention. We receive no funding from the institutional Church and rely entirely on your generosity to sustain this website with trustworthy, accessible content. My argument is how the word adelphos is specifically is used to the New Testament Greek. Is primary meaning of adelphos that you have the same biological mother and father? A Facebook "Dialogue" With Baptist Author Steve Christie. If Mary kept the law, she could not be made righteous since righteousness does not come from keeping the law, but through Christs death. So whenever you are ready, Ill click the timer. You just have to join locals in the same way youd have to join Twitter or Facebook to get access to it. For example, although Josephus seems to defend what is equivalent to the Protestant canon, scholars recog-nize his propensity for exaggeration. He is also a registered nurse and Steve discusses the challenges of balancing ministry and a career. And so it would fulfill the promise in Philippians 3:21 that says, Our bodies, lowly bodies, will be transformed like his heavenly body, Christ. I would love to have Augustine or Aquinas come down to my parish and give a talk or be a pastor there. Thank you very much, Trent. Yeah. It has all the free resources including the Study Guide to his first book, all his Bible studies, and his contact info: http://vernisage.us/stevechristie/ Steve Christie has also appeared on the Third Man Podcast: Steve Christie has written several books: It would behoove us, then, to follow in their example and praise the gift of Gods word that comes to us in these writings and critically examine arguments such as those presented by Steve Christie that would tempt us to reject a portion of Gods sacred revelation. That sums it up. Well, whats interesting is that Steve actually had very good objections to some of these arguments. He serves as a staff apologist for Catholic Answers, where he specializes in teaching Catholics to graciously and persuasively engage those who disagree with them. And my contention is that if Adam had not fallen and inherited original sin, he would not have died. Well, theres Pokemon The First Movie, and it was so bad, there were no other movies. This has led biblical scholars to make a variety of proposals for the identity of this Zechariah. And the same is true for Mary. This passage also contradicts the dogma of the Immaculate Conception of Mary since Jesus mother was with Jesus brothers in verses 20 to 21, when they accused him of being out of his senses. But when you look into church history, its kind of hard to answer that question because even Trent cannot say about somebody that agreed exactly the way that he does. First Corinthians 15 talks about heavenly bodies and that Mary is given Well, I think what Steve was saying here is that, okay, well, Mary had an earthy body. It just means somebody is wrong, whether it be me or another person who calls themselves Protestant that accepts these things. By utilizing electric acoustic guitar and digitally recorded performance tracks with the technology of digital harmony Steve performs your favorite hits, "flawlessly". And he told the Thessalonians who that was, but we dont know who that was, and [inaudible 01:06:25] biblical scholars have had many different answers and we dont know much the same this particular truth about whether Mary died or not. Well, right. Okay. I will take away their sins. The claim that Mary did not give birth to other children because Jesus is called the son of Mary. No, I can think of anything like that, but I would say that Marys status as being the God bearer would mean thered be many truths that are quite unique to her that we dont find in either old or New Testament. Itll make me feel really good if nothing else. Just keep it shorter than his response. There are a lot of great resources at catholic.com. And this was a dogmatic constitution of the church by Pope Paul VI. Also the Greek word for brother, its not always you to represent full brothers. You mean the son of John? Okay. In 2004, Christie was signed by the Jacksonville Jaguars to put some pressure on struggling rookie Josh Scobee. She didnt become sin either according to Roman Catholicism. So just a historical note for everybody watching. Trent, in your recent podcast rebutting Ray Comfort, you said Jesus is the only person referred to as the son of Mary. I like you Trent. General Manager New South Wales MRC Australia Sep 2017 - Dec 2018 1 year 4 months. It is not considered inspired. From 2001 to 2003 he played for the San Diego Chargers, who, with the hire of former Bills GM John Butler, acquired several former Buffalo players. Overview. But while infants may not have committed a personal sin, they still need salvation in Christ because they inherited original sin. The Greek grammarian Bill Mounce, who writes a whole textbook on Ancient Greek, says that adelphi means, sister, near kinswoman, or female relative. When it comes to [Greek 00:39:49], I already showed that both in the Septuagint and also in contemporary literature, it does not require a reversal of condition, so it can be used here in Matthew 1:25 in this way. And I showed counter examples to that in each of those cases. Steven Pinker is a scientist and public intellectual, provocative, informed and informative. James White: Steve Ray is a Dolt, Dunce, Imbecile, Idiot, and Ignoramus *** [] What is clear is that Ray has not seriously interacted with anything other than this kind of "Jack Chick/Dave Hunt . But Mary only had a human nature and a sinful nature. Timothy Michael Law, who serves as the co-editor of the Oxford Handbook on the Septuagint, says the deuterocanonical books were included in the Septuagint and that it would also be mistaken to imagine that they have never been read as divine Scripture.. Hebrews 11:5 states, By faith Enoch was taken up so that he would not see death. And he was not found because God took him up. Paul offers, he says in First Corinthians 7:5 through seven, Do not refuse one another, except by agreement for a season, to devote yourselves to prayer so that youre not tempted by lack of self control. More on that in a moment. So my point here is clear. So since Jacob is referred to as the son of Isaac, and Reuben as the son of Jacob, then were they only children? And we can safely assume that Jesus saw the body of Moses on the Mount of Transfiguration. Just a shameless plug, like I said, Im an author of two books. Okay. No, thats fine. Im not sure why she would be surprised when told that shes going to have a son, given that under Jewish law, she and Joseph were free to engage in conjugal relations even right at that moment after the angel had left. In fact, as Baptist scholar Lee Mcdonald points out, the book of Malachi only implores its listeners to remember the law of Moses, which would be strange if there were a fixed set of writings established by Ezra called the prophets at this time. Christian apologist accused of denying fundamental truths. Offering a sacrifice to Mary would be an inappropriate. Steven is related to James P Christie and Helen J Christie as well as 1 additional person. And if you take a look at the origin of all three of these dogmas, they all come from either nastic like text or apocryphal literature or [inaudible 01:29:53] literature, like the Protoevangelium of James and elsewhere. The Pharisees had unique teaching authority in Israel, and the Pharisees canon was essentially the same as the Protestant Old Testament canon. They wanted people following scripture even if they were wrong. All right, Steve, whenever you begin, I Actually, just give me one second. The proclamation on Marys immaculate conception says that the fathers unanimously believe that which is false. He was a key contributor in the Bills comeback win against the Houston Oilers, in which Buffalo rallied from a 32-point deficit[2] to complete the largest comeback victory in NFL history. The point I want to raise there is that adelphi has the same semantic range as adelphos. Book now for free with CMG Booking. Since he is the uncreated sinless deity conceived by the holy spirit. Communication, Canon, and Unbeliever Knowledge of God, Reformed Apologist (Ronald W. Di Giacomo). My point though was to show that the Marian dogmas do not contradict Scripture. In the Darby translation of the New Testament, where in second Thessalonians Chapter 2, when it talks about worshiping images and worshiping idols, it actually uses the word veneration and it literally can be translated worship. So Ill send you a link, you could put that [inaudible 01:35:07] as well. As an authorised Mesabi dealer and supplier of tube and shell . So just because this Psalm talks about my mothers sons, it doesnt imply that Mary gave birth to other children. So to everybody whos watching, please stick around. After completing several real estate transactions, Stephen discovered that the agents' work ethics . He had cancer and heart disease. The other thing about Jesus is, yes, Jesus did not sin, but the Bible says that he took on sin, which is different than actually inheriting sin because, again, he is conceived by the Holy Spirit, unlike Mary, who is actually conceived in sin. How do we know theyre brothers? In order to show these dogma contradict scripture, Steve must do one of two things. Trent made the comment about the word until thats used in Second Samuel, but it uses the word [Greek 00:37:31], not [Greek 00:37:31]. Fair enough, Steve shaking his head no, but well leave it at that for now. In this debate, originally hosted at Pints with Aquinas, Trent Horn engages Protestant apologist Steve Christie on the question of whether the Marian dogmas contradict what is taught in sacred scripture. [inaudible 01:22:12] Thats fine. And, as it turns out, Christies book fails to produce any such standard. And they did not want people following them. This is the number one downloaded Catholic app in the app store, and it is the best app Ive ever used ever. Just a weak reference to Mark chapter three. Of course, but how do we know that Andrew is also the son of Jonah? This is not the rule. And see, heres the thing. Anyone who denies this dogma automatically contradicts scripture because if Jesus is God and Mary is the mother of Jesus. It has to be interpreted charitably, or its possible there might be an error in a magisterial statement recounting history, but that doesnt apply the charism to the doctrine itself. Just as eating from the tree of life wouldve resulted in Adam physically living forever likewise, Adam, eating from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, result put into him physically dying. His primary concern is to simply say that Jesus had no earthly father. One, the sole non-falsifiable and fallible authority of the Roman Catholic church, sola ecclesia, which teaches these Marian Dogmas versus a sole infallible authority of scripture sola scriptura, which contradicts them. Hallow.com/mattfred, click the link in the description below. And I also want to thank Trent for picking the particular title on how it was actually described because I had mentioned, Hey, lets just do the Perpetual Virginity of Mary. And hes like, Lets do all three of them. So it was Trents idea. Thanks. Well, not necessarily. Instead, they describe Ezra bringing scrolls to Jerusalem and a process of later works being written that gradually developed into what they call a relatively complete Jewish Bible. But they also acknowledge some Jews accepted the deuterocanonicals as Scripture and that many Christian communities embraced these works as part of the Bible.. After chemotherapy and radiation treatments in Buffalo, he underwent two successful surgeries at the Cleveland Clinic in Cleveland, Ohio. I do talk about this in my book and there, I note that its used differently than in Sirach 18:17, where the word is also used in those situations. Yeah, no, fair enough. All right. My point was that we should not believe in doctrines that plainly contradict Scripture. I had mentioned about the word all, pas, all have sin and fall short of the glory of God. Yeah, no, Steve, if you want to give me the links to those over email, Ill be sure to put them in the description below so people can easily find them. Steve Christie also has his own website. . The purpose of this debate, as Trent had brought up, is about the Marian Dogmas. Just like Jesus and Mary did not have glorified bodies, Jesus did not have a glorified body during his earthly ministry, he briefly revealed it on the Mount of Transfiguration, but Jesus was not going about in his glory during his earthly ministry. Take your time there, Steve, getting yourself ready. If it was, the New Testament writers would not deviate from it occasionally and use their own Greek translation. Regarding her bodily assumption that Pope declared infallibly, if anyone should dare willfully to deny that which we have defined, let him know that he has fallen away completely from the divine and Catholic faith. If she were sinless, what would happen to her if she-. And this includes Mary, who Jesus saved her by redeeming and delivering her from her sins. Lets see. Do it, or dont do it. Rather, biblically the church is every individual sinner who God has redeemed out of the world to be a slave to our master and Lord Jesus Christ, every individual sinner. It is a matter of which authority are you willing to submit to. He was a five-year teammate of quarterback Jim Kelly, who has been in remission from sinus cancer since August. Steve Christie joins me this week to discuss how he got started in apologetics and why it is important. 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